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Tarek82	A question	Lead	[-]
Posts: 136 Mar 16 08 8:56 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Well, we used to say the university of London External program because UOL was awarding the degrees.Now, it is the UOL external system, a system that contains diffrent programs and they no longer award the degrees (at least for the EMFSS).So, is it more like the LSE external study program from now onwards????.....
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moho19		#1	[-]
Posts: 354 Mar 20 08 11:01 PM Admin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi Tarek, You pose quite an interesting question. I will not assume anything and so will not venture any guesses about the matter. However, I was recently informed by the British Council that my degree certificate has reached them. Once I collect it and review the nature of the awarding body of that certificate, I'll inform this board of my findings. For further information, if needed, I'll contact the University to get some clarifications. Cheers, Mohammed.
Tarek82		#2	[-]
Posts: 136 Mar 21 08 9:15 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well, i think i heard that this will happen next year.Hence, i am not sure if this applies to you MO.However, LSE already started to award it's own degrees to internal students.See here http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/researchStudents/. Anyways, LSE or UOL, it doesn't really matter.I am talking about the name.I am writing the university of London external program, while it no longer is a program, it's a system.You see the problem . Last Edited By: Tarek82 Mar 21 08 9:18 AM. Edited 1 times.
moho19		#3	[-]
Posts: 354 Mar 22 08 8:11 AM Admin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tarek, I see your point now, regarding the change. As for the problem with 'external system' and 'external programme', I actually see the 'system' being more constructive as it shows a stronger association between external students and the University of London. In addition, if you notice, the logo of the 'external programme' has been dissolved and now the main University of London logo is being used. I see this as more beneficial. I do wonder how strongly the association with the LSE (or any other college) will be represented on the certificates in the future. If you have other concerns that I am unable to interpret from the change, by all means please share for all our benefit :) Cheers, Mohammed.
Tarek82	RE	#4	[-]
Posts: 136 Mar 22 08 9:34 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The only reason the University of London is mentioned on the degree is because it is the awarding body. Once it stops awarding those degrees, its name might not be there. I mean, why would it be?. Also, I am not concerned about all this. I study stuff that I like and I have confidence in the way they evaluate our work; these are the things that matter most to me. Weather the degree says LSE or UOL is not something that bothers me. All I care about is to learn something from these modules; and that I certainly did. I just asked this question because when Rosie said LSE will award the degree later on, people didn't really seem surprised. So, I assumed they heard that before. And since, it seemed weird to say I am studying with the UOL external system (it's like saying I am working for the government), I thought maybe someone around here knew something about it.The other reason that motivated this question has to do with the first time I saw Rosie. A student said the LSE program, and she said in an assertive manner, it is called the university of London external program (I have to say it took us time to figure that out). Hence, I am really curious to know if this comment would still be valid when LSE awards the degree later on. It's a curiosity thing, that's all.
anna xxxxxxx		#5	[-]
Posts: 179 Mar 22 08 11:01 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	ah... hot topic! my perspective: the LSE has the LSE external study page linked to their main page, therefore I dont have any issues saying/indicating in my papers that i'm getting my degree via LSE external study. and whatever are the nuances / Rosie's emphasis, they are so subtle, someone from outside of the academic world of UoL/LSE is just does not have the time to really understand these details. from my experience, LSE is more recognizable as a 'brand', and along with the knowledge the prestige of the diploma does matter, so why should we not take the advantage of our degrees being academically aligned with LSE? UoL is an administrative body, the syllabus IS designed by LSE, and we are supposedly meeting their standards by passing our remote exams. I really feel it's just a hype - this distinction... Of course, claiming yourself an LSE alumni is not 'legal', and we won't have the privileges of their alumni pool :) btw: there is an 'LSE club' group on linkedin.com - I requested to join this group (indicating i'm an external student, and only in my 2nd year) and was approved (don't know whether the approver is an academic person, or a student/alimni).. anyway with all the respect to Rosie's opinion, this distinction is really a grey area and it's not clear where the line can be drawn, as far as I could observe so far.
moho19		#6	[-]
Posts: 354 Mar 22 08 1:25 PM Admin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree with both perspectives, in some capacity. While some people are in it for the learning and challenging part (and I admit I am one of these), others are swayed towards preferring this programme over others due to the attraction made by the 'LSE' association. It makes the programme more marketable (excuse my belittling of the programme by saying this, however). It does make a difference when you go to an employer and tell them that you've got an LSE degree through external study and a University of London degree through external study. LSE carries more brand equity/weight. Technically, because the the syllabus is designed by the LSE and we meet their examination standards, we are 'external' LSE students or to be more fair - we've studied with the LSE via the external mode. Now, I suppose Rosie's assertion about it being the University of London programme rather than the LSE external progamme would be not to belittle the prestige attached to the LSE as an institution and those who study their full-time. It takes a lot to be accepted to and be recognised as a full-time LSE student. It honestly would not be fair to them to have external students simply walk up and call themselves LSE students as well. It's a gray area like Anne said that benefits both parties, really. And I think it has deliberately been kept gray for these reasons. It strengthens the appeal of the external programme yet technically does not allow external students to be recongised as LSE students. At the end of the day, if you are content with the challenges faced by the programme and take pride in overcoming them and after a period of time gaining the degree, that is quite an achievement. Technicalities and brand names should not affect this personal accomplishment. However, this cannot be true for everyone because it is a competitive world and to be commercially viable it sometimes is necessary to have associations with big names, such as the LSE. Bottom line is that if we are told that the syllabus is designed by the LSE and we are expected to reach their examination standards, we should be content with the fact that we do this. We should rest assured that we are good enough for this. Technicalities of name should not affect us. In addition, we should also know that the University of London as a brand name is not something to be overlooked. It should be known that it is one of the largest and main British universities (the other two being Oxford and Cambridge). People might find contentment in this and some may still insist on trying to push, as much as possible, for even the remotest levels of association with the LSE. This, of course, is a personal decision and preference. IMHO :) Cheers, Mohammed.
anna xxxxxxx		#7	[-]
Posts: 179 Mar 23 08 8:12 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	just one more comment, evoked by this line from Mohammed's post above: "It takes a lot to be accepted to and be recognised as a full-time LSE student. It honestly would not be fair to them to have external students simply walk up and call themselves LSE students as well." absolutely so. however, on top of good background and training to get to LSE the full-time student have the privilege of a) either being UK residents or having the opportunity to relocate to UK b) the money to cover tuition fees. Which, of course, is parental support, not a personal accomplishment of the students aged ~19. as far as i understand, the spirit of the external system is precisely that: to promote access to the knowledge and education, and fair academic and career opportunities world wide, based on principles of meritocracy (i.e. academic ability) not residency or financial standing. science and social science has been a prerogative of white western males for decades, and there are today more and more concerns about the biases caused by this; therefore i also see the long-term pragmatism of the external program, which does not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, nationality or gender. with regards to the severe entrance competition to LSE full-time vs no quota to LSE-external: as someone already highlighted this on yansa - there are still criteria to meet to get into the external program, there are not that many people worldwide who are willing and able to go through the programme, a quota in the external case would be an artificial entity and thus would breach the values of the program (outline above), and the exams itself are a good enough screening mechanism (which in our external case is probably a good balance to the no-quota conditions). last but not least, having passed the exams and having achieved the degree - congrats, Mohammed! - you deserve not any less (in my opinion - much more) of the respect and opportunities to succeed further than any of the LSE full-time BS level people. - IMHO :) Anna
Frankie		#8	[-]
Posts: 40 Mar 25 08 10:45 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	During the last Study Weekend (February 2008), I was informed explicitly by the External System staff that although the programme is offered using LSE resources, it is, in fact, part of the University of London portfolio, and as such its full name would be, from this year, University of London External System (see http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/). The use of LSE in the name of the course by us external students is, therefore, unwarranted and mistaken. Oh well. But most of the units will continue to be prepared by the academic staff of LSE. Hence plenty of room for continuing confusion.
Dona	LSE?	#9	[-]
Posts: 371 Apr 26 08 3:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have been writing LSE on my CV since day one, I agree that it is a much more recognisable and prestigious brand! I don't think it's cheating, I work full time and work very hard for my degree! And the standards of the examinations are comparable. Let's not forget that we subsidise the UOL and LSE, if you total up the fees paid by all the external students and compare to what we get.... (still worth it, though). I think this is the real purpose of the External Programme, we are the cinderella of the LSE, it's made very clear that we are not welcome in the 'meanstream' (e.g. we don't get full use of LSE library, we cannot join the alumni society) and that's the only reason the LSE engages in it. The External programme in itself is very good, people like Rosie and Kate are very committed, and I'm personally very happy to be studying on the programme! Lovin' it!!!
Rob	UoL vs LSE	#10	[-]
Posts: 137 Apr 29 08 1:58 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hello all, My certificate, which I received last month, has "University of London in association with The London School of Economics and Political Science" written at the top. Therefore to state that "The use of LSE in the name of the course by us external students is, therefore, unwarranted and mistaken" is not true. When I went for a job earlier this year I told my prospective employer that I got my degree as an external student of the UoL, studying through the LSE. (and, yes, I got the job!) Personally I am very careful not to say anything that gives the impression that I was an internal student of the LSE. However, as my certificate makes it pretty clear that the LSE had a hand in the award of my degree, I don't have any problem in using the LSE's name. Just my 2 cent's worth.... Rob. Last Edited By: Rob Apr 29 08 2:00 PM. Edited 1 times.
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DonaldCallahan		#11	[-]
Posts: 307 May 4 08 2:49 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	We're officially students of the LSE External Study Programme: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/LSEExternalStudy/ Side note: When I applied for Postgrad, universities simply refer to my university as "London School of Economics and Political Science" even though I state explicitly that I am an external student. @_@
sups		#12	[-]
Posts: 26 May 5 08 8:58 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	which uni did u apply?
sups		#13	[-]
Posts: 26 May 5 08 9:18 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	dona that is absolutely cheating. we are not in LSE. we are in UOL External System. The association in that it is LSE only providing guidance in our course materials. The LSE relationship ends with the UOL, it has no direct relationship with us. We cannot refer ourselves to LSE. the difference is so clear. The entry requirements into LSE (academics and course fees) are different from UOL. If someone beyond us students (employers or postgrad unis) decides to recognise we are part of LSE, it is a bonus, not a right. We are in UOL External System, not in LSE
anna xxxxxxx		#14	[-]
Posts: 179 May 5 08 10:30 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	sups: as indicated on the LSE official site, such thing as 'LSE external programme' does exist. so no, you can't accuse Dona or whoever else of cheating. declaring that you're an LSE student or an LSE alimni would not be correct, but indicating you're an LSE external student is ambiguous but obviously not 'illegal'. UoL doesn't do academic content, they do administration, whenever you say you're a student of UoL you imply there's a college (like LSE) behind that.
sups		#15	[-]
Posts: 26 May 5 08 12:07 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hi anna, of course i know the 'external system' exists, i am a final year student. i am just saying that there is a real difference if you say you are 'im a lse student' 'im a lse/uol external student'. and intrinsically, there is a difference in the latter. I agree with everyone else except Dona, i am quoting her because she said she put 'LSE' on her CV, she didnt say if she included the external. That is absolutely cheating. Irregardless to whether the result of an external is similar to an internal student, It is giving the impression to whoever is reading the CV that she is previously qualified to go into LSE the fact is that where im in, everyone wants to think they are from the 'lse', which is not true. People not in our program thinks its ridiculous. the problem is not with the program, but with what students want to think of themselves as, we are uol external, not really lse external, there is no department call LSE External, only UOL External. LSE is giving guidance, its relationship is with UOL and it ends there, it does not have a relationship with us. Be happy and proud of the UOL system, with guidance of LSE. We are not external students of LSE. I hope the difference i state is clarified and clear Last Edited By: sups May 5 08 12:16 PM. Edited 3 times.
rmdat2003		#16	[-]
Posts: 30 May 5 08 1:28 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	So, when the LSE decide to award their own degree certificate, rather than a UOL degree certificate, what do we say then exactly ? And, if this is purely an administrative relationship, why is the external study such a prominent part of the LSE web-site - http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/LSEExternalStudy/. And, if the LSE does not want to be a prominent part of the system, why do the study guides have the LSE logo, and the staff who write the guides are part of the LSE ? This is clearly much more than just an administrative relationship, so if people want to emphasize that their study was 'with the LSE' I see no problem with that. If an employer or whoever else, really cares, they are free to obtain the transcript for precise details of the form of study.
sups		#17	[-]
Posts: 26 May 6 08 10:09 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	rmdat2003 wrote: If an employer or whoever else, really cares, they are free to obtain the transcript for precise details of the form of study. you are absolutely right on the part of the academics portion rmdat2003 but " so if people want to emphasize that their study was 'with the LSE' I see no problem with that" I do not agree. This is clearly a behavioural problem that the students prefer themselves to be in, not a clearly specified one understandable for outsiders. An analogy: assuming that you are not studying this course, and someone tells you that he is from the LSE. " I study within the LSE ", " I am with the LSE" or "I am from the LSE System" - this is a clear and implied meaning that he is an internal student. There will be no immediate thought on whether he is from the external system and they wont be in a "responsive situation" to "really care to be free to obtain the transcript". And if he really cares to obtain the transcript, that's fine. If he doesnt, does it mean that its just too bad for the employer who thought the person is really from LSE, if the student decides to say "im with LSE" ? Last Edited By: sups May 6 08 10:11 AM. Edited 2 times.
rmdat2003		#18	[-]
Posts: 30 May 6 08 5:39 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If the standard truly is the same, does it really matter whether you study internal or external ? Personally, I feel that if you are on the external system and achieve the same grade as anyone on the internal system, you have achieved a much higher standard, since there is less 'hand-holding', which is going to be much more valuable in the real business world, where you are expected to work with minimal supervision.
sups		#19	[-]
Posts: 26 May 7 08 7:51 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	rmdat2003 wrote: If the standard truly is the same, does it really matter whether you study internal or external ? Personally, I feel that if you are on the external system and achieve the same grade as anyone on the internal system, you have achieved a much higher standard, since there is less 'hand-holding', which is going to be much more valuable in the real business world, where you are expected to work with minimal supervision. see, this is exactly what im saying, this is your personal/ some students' perception , not outsider's perception, of thinking it is perfectly fine to say "I'm with LSE" There is a real difference between what we see and what other people see. What you see is that, there is no difference in standards thus, it is okay to say "i'm with LSE". What others might see is that we are "external" student, and its mutually exclusive from an "internal student". And no matter if the standards are the same, if you say "I'm with LSE", there is a difference between being qualified into LSE and doing a LSE-similar style (UOL) exam question student who is not studying in LSE. What is happening exactly is that you are choosing what is preferred, and using whichever evidence to back up the choice. It is absolutely wrong to say "I'm with LSE", it is misleading. We can have our personal perception, but if it is used into accidentally misleading potential employers or outsiders, it is a dismay. The only way to gain credibility in the long run is to not mislead.
anna xxxxxxx		#20	[-]
Posts: 179 May 7 08 8:03 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	well, the only argument i have here is that many of us are either working full-time while studying, or are studying full-time at a teaching institution, or are living outside of UK for the period of their study - and this is very clearly stated on a C.V.... believe me, an average HR would immediately find 'inconsistencies' in chronology in a resume and will ask questions to make sense out of it. therefore the detailed questions / inquiry about the mode of study from employers are anticipated. it's quite obvious that 'LSE' or 'UoL' in such context is something else rather than a standard full-time college experience.
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